While messing around with monster creation, I started comparing 5e Monster Manual creatures with the 5e guidelines for creating monsters (DMG page 274). Based on my number crunching, it looks like the DMG’s central monster creation chart, “Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating”, isn’t in line with the Monster Manual, and if you try to follow it you will get monsters that don’t look much like Monster Manual monsters.
5e Trying to Homebrew my 1st Monster. Posted by 4 years ago. According to the quick-table in the DMG (around page 274) something that is CR5 has +3 prof, 15 AC, 130-145 HP, +6 to hit or so, does 38dmg/round, and has a DC15 for save attacks. But if I look at another CR5 monster in the MM, their health usually never. Thieves with the Use Magic Device trait have advantage on their check to use a scroll. A creature who tries and fails to cast a spell from a spell scroll must make a DC8 + spell's level Intelligence saving throw. If the saving throw fails, roll on the Scroll Mishap table (DMG, pg. Firearms: Bombs, Gunpowder, and Renaissance era items only. Useing the Table:Refer to the 5e DMG pages 273-278 'Creating Monsters' for the guidelines to use this Chart. However, there is one difference between using the table in the DMG and this table. The 'Effective Hit Points.' Table on pg 278 of the DMG has the last row in the table as 17 or more.
This may be widely known and only new to me, but I haven’t found anything definitive or official on it. A fairly cursory search only turns up a few argumentative message board discussions and some pretty good Howling Tower posts (such as https://koboldpress.com/howling-tower-monster-stats-part-2/ where Steve Winter graphs the discrepancies but backs off the conclusion that the DMG chart is incorrect.
In this post, I’ll try to show the data that suggests to me that the chart is wrong.
Note: the process of creating a monster stat block is long and convoluted: according to the DMG it’s a 20-step process (!) and one of the steps involves executing another 4-step process detailed elsewhere. So there’s lots of room for error, and I could have a lot of things wrong. But the basic process is: figure out the monster’s Defensive CR, which is primarily determined by HP but modified by AC, resistances, and some traits; figure out its Offensive CR, which is primarily determined by average damage over three rounds of combat, modified for burst damage, area of effects, and various traits and abilities, and also by attack bonus or spell save DC; and then average the offensive and defensive numbers to get the final CR.
Hit Points
The first clue that the DMG chart is wrong is in the hit points column of the chart. According to the chart, for instance, a CR 1/4 monster has 36-49 HP. However, let’s look at some CR 1/4 monster hit points. Boar, 11 HP. Goblin, 7 HP. Skeleton, 13 HP. Wolf, 11 HP. The CR 1/4 monster with the highest HP is the mud mephit, with 27 HP, still significantly less than the low end of the DMG-suggested hit point range.
Here’s a chart of the DMG-suggested Hit Points versus the average hit points per level from the Monster Manual: purple bar is the DMG’s Hit Point recommendations by CR, blue bar is the actual average HP from the Monster Manual.
That weird dip at CR 18 is because the demilich is the only CR 18 monster. And in fact, there are so few data points above level 10 that any analysis above level 10 should be taken with a grain of salt. Even ignoring the demilich and the dearth of high level data, you can see that the Monster Manual Hit Points skew way low.
The DMG monster creation rules have lots of adjustments to be made: monsters with lots of resistances and immunities are to have their “effective HP” adjusted upwards; and defensive abilities, such as damage transfer, regeneration, or magic resistance also adjust the effective HP. However, on examination, these adjustments don’t actually account for the extra HP in the DMG chart. In fact, they don’t do much at all. Examine the following chart:
In the chart above, “mm no defenses” means those monsters with few resistances and no significant defensive abilities. You’d expect these monster to have the highest hit points. “mm low resistance” are the monsters with few resistances, whether or not they have defensive abilities. “mm high resistance” means those monsters with more than 3 resistances or immunities: you’d expect these monsters to have the lowest hit points. (Many of these bars are broken because there are CRs at which there are no monsters which meet these qualifications.)
In fact, below level 12 – where we have enough data points to do reasonable analysis – there are no significant hit point differences between monsters with high special defenses/resistances/immunities and those without. At high levels, it is plausible that high-immunity monsters may have lower hit points, though we really need more data points to be sure. However, the overall trend lines are clear: none of these groups of monsters has anything like the hit point totals recommended in the DMG – even the no-defense brutes.
Conclusion: In the Monster Manual, hit points are much lower than the values presented in the DMG. Furthermore, special defenses, resistances and immunities don’t seem to be related to hit points.
Armor Class
Now let’s add armor class into the analysis. In the DMG, hit points and armor class are both used to determine “defensive CR” so perhaps it doesn’t make sense to analyze one without the other.
First of all, a simple analysis of real Monster Manual AC versus expected DMG AC.
Apart from high levels, Monster Manual and DMG ACs are close: usually within a point of AC.
Could Armor Class solve our Hit Point problems? Perhaps low-AC monsters have proper DMG Hit Point values?
Here is a chart of the average hit points of monsters grouped by AC.
“Low ac hp” is HP of the monsters with AC lower than the DMG AC value. You’d expect these guys to have high hit points. “High ac hp” have higher than average AC and theoretically should have lower than average hit points. “Target HP” are the monsters whose AC exactly matches the DMG AC expectations.
As you can see, below level 11, there is no significant difference in HP between those monsters with high and low HP. Above level 11, things are swingy as usual because of fewer data points, but there is no obvious through line that suggests that there is any relationship between AC and HP.
Conclusion: In the Monster Manual, AC values are on par with those presented in the DMG. Hit points and AC do not seem to be correlated in any meaningful way.
Damage
It takes quite a few steps to calculate a monster’s “average” damage according to the instructions in the Monster Manual. The process is: figure out the average damage for the first 3 rounds of combat. Assume that all monster attack hits and all hero saving throws fail. All area attacks hit two people, and all ongoing effects (like being swallowed) last for one turn. Effects like Charge or Pounce happen once.
After all these calculations, here are the Monster Manual average damages by CR, compared to the DMG expectations.
(The gap in the blue line is for the demilich, the only CR 18 monster, whose max damage is hard to calculate.)
The Monster Manual damage is fairly close to the DMG expectation, though generally 10% to 20% low. This is odd: Monster Manual hit points are too low according to the DMG rubric, and damage is low too? It seems as if Monster Manual monsters are just weaker than the DMG suggests. But let’s do some further analysis to damage.
Perhaps monsters have a higher “effective hit points” because of special attack modes. If this is the case, those monsters with special attack modes should have lower hit points than simple monsters. To test this, I’ll separate out those monsters with powerful attack modes that don’t do direct damage, like charm, stun, paralysis, and instakill abilities.
As usual, below level 11 where we have the most data, there is no damage difference between monsters with and without special attack modes. At high levels, there are variations, but there is no clear winner.
Maybe there is some relationship between damage and hit points? Perhaps monsters with lower hit points do higher damage, and vice versa?
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To test this, I’ll graph the damage dealt by below-average-HP monsters and above-average-HP monsters separately.
Again, below level 11, there is no difference at all between the damage output of beefy and glass-jawed monsters, and at high levels the correlation isn’t clear. If anything, there may be a slight reverse correlation with beefier monsters doing more damage.
Conclusion: The damage output of Monster Manual monsters is slightly lower than the DMG expectations. It’s not correlated with special attack modes or with hit points.
Attack bonus
We have another important value to look at: attack bonus. How do the monster manual attack bonuses compare to the DMG values? And do they correlate to any other monster stats?
First of all, the attack bonus numbers:
Attack bonuses are WAY off. Monster Manual values are consistently too high compared to DMG values throughout – as much as 5 points too low at level 24 (+12 vs +17).
This is starting to make sense. I think the DMG values are an early draft of the monster formulae. I bet that at some point, the developers decided that they needed to raise the accuracy and lower the damage of monsters, aiming for the same total damage. The DMG chart never got updated.
While we’re here, let’s just check for a few more correlations. Do high-accuracy monsters have lower damage output, or have fewer hit points? My guess is no, since we’ve hardly found any correlations yet.
Not only does attack not balance anything out, there may be a reverse correlation: hi-accuracy monsters also tend to be slightly higher-damage and higher-hit point than normal. In other words, within a given CR, some monsters are better all-round than others.
Conclusion: Attack bonus in the Monster Manual is way lower than in the DMG chart, and doesn’t correlate with any other monster attributes.
Save DC
Since we’ve come this far, we might as well look at the last column in the DMG chart: save DC.
The save DCs in the Monster Manual are quite different from those in the DMG chart. The DMG DCs are much flatter, ranging from 13 to 23, while the actual DCs range from 10 to 24. I don’t think I need to do a lot of analysis on DCs.
Now what?
It seems clear to me that the Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating isn’t the up-to-date version of the monster creation formulae. I bet it was accurate as of some iteration of D&D Next and never got fully updated.
It’s also apparent that there is not a lot of correlation between any monster stat and any other stat. All the complicated DMG steps involving adjusting and averaging don’t actually hold up to examination when we look at the Monster Manual monsters. The actual process seems to be something like
1. Start with appropriate numbers based on CR
2. Adjust any stat or two up and down, and add any trait or feature, based on story. Don’t make any further adjustments.
Which is great for us! This two-step system is way easier than the 20-step DMG version. We can even do it on the fly! All we need is an accurate CR-to-statistics chart.
Give me a few days: I’ll try to come up with a new monster-creation chart that will match Monster Manual monster math, and that is small enough to fit, say, on a business card.
In the meantime, here is a copy of the monster-stat TSV file I used to generate these tables. Please feel free to validate the monster stats, validate or invalidate my calculations, correct my assumptions, prove me wrong, or whatever else you want to do with this stuff.
Next: more numbercrunching: we look at Mordenkainen’s Guide
Adventure Summary: In this level 1 D&D adventure, myconids and vegepygmies have uncovered an ancient relic of Zuggtmoy that has begun corrupting both them and the forest around. When the gnome village of Dahish is affected, the mushroom exports to the surrounding region comes to a grinding halt. This, of course, prompts a local lord, Dansworth Ratheem, with a love for truffles to commission a band of adventurers to find the source of the problem and put a stop to it.
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- Vegepygmy – CR ¼
- Myconid Sprout – CR 0
- Myconid Adult – CR ½
- Awakened Shrub – CR 0
- This adventure is designed for 4 level 1 characters.
- Note how many short/long rests are expected.
- Contains treasure from 0 rolls on the level 1-4 treasure hoard table in DMG….but it does have 250 gp reward which is a sizable amount for a level 1 party.
- Recently myconids in the forest uncovered a relic of Zuggtmoy that they brought back to their village. This relic, once unearthed, began to spread the evil influence of that demon throughout the forest. The myconids and vegepygmies that live with them began worshipping her.
- As the influence of Zuggtmoy began spreading throughout the forest, even plants began to come alive and attack creatures.
- A gnome village deep in the forest where the day of light barely penetrates, relies purely on mushrooms for food, medicine, and even light. Recently their mushroom groves have been coming to life and attacking them.
- The relic must be neutralized or destroyed to end the threat to the forest.
Dahish. Gnome village deep in a forest.
White Cap Village. Myconid and vegepygmy village in the forest.
Lord Dansworth Ratheem. A local lord who loves mushroom dishes.
Marisha Marigold. A gnome priest in Dahish.
- There is a shortage of mushrooms throughout the entire region because shipments from Dahish stopped some time ago. Wherever the characters happen to be, they learn of this issue when a local lord, Lord Ratheem, puts out a 250 gp reward for whoever can get the shipments to resume.
- The local lord loves mushrooms, and his cook (or anyone in the village, really) can tell the characters that Dahish is the source of the region’s mushroom.
As the characters travel to Dahish, they encounter a hallucinating gnome running through the forest, screaming. He is being chased by a pack of five mushrooms (use awakened shrub stats) that attacked him.
If the characters help the gnome, named Snelvig, he thanks them profusely and offers to guide them to Dahish and gives them a meal at his house as a “thank you.” However, the gnome is hallucinating like crazy the whole time.
In Dahish, all of the mushroom grove are gone, having come alive and wandered off. Most of the gnomes are huddled in just a few buildings so that they can find safety in numbers.
One of the buildings they find refuge in is a church. In the church there is a gnome priest named Marisha Marigold who remembers hearing tales of the forest coming alive in the past. She has an ancient tome in the church archives that mentions a powerful demonic influence that once visited the forest, and she suspects that it has returned.
While the characters are speaking with the gnome, possibly while in the church, a two vegepygmies attack a gnome parent and their child while they were going to the outhouse. The vegepygmies’ goal is to kidnap the gnome child and take it back to White Cap Village to sacrifice it to Zuggtmoy.
If the characters manage to stop the vegepygmies, they can follow the creatures tracks back to White Cap Village if they make a successful DC 8 Wisdom (Survival) check.
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If the vegepygmies escape with the child, the gnome parent begs the characters to get their child back. The tracks can be followed with a successful DC 8 Wisdom (Survival) check.
On the way to they myconid village, is a spore trap the myconids use to protect their territory. When the characters travel through it, they must make DC 12 Constitution saving throws. On failed saves, they hallucinate that a shambling mound is attacking them.
Those who believe the hallucination take real damage from it, but when reduced to zero hit points are simply unconscious and stable. If the entire party succumbs to the hallucination and the shambling mound, the myconids come to collect them and take them prisoners, to be used as future sacrifices to Zuggtmoy.
A mossy carpet covers the ground in the myconid village, and the vegepygmies live in crude huts made of wood walls and moss roofs. The myconids don’t live in any structures, but instead converge around massive hollow petrified log from an ancient tree that fell centuries ago. White cap mushroom groves are scattered about the village. Twigs and branches form a fence of sorts around the village, and an archway leads in.
5e Homebrew Weapons
The relic of Zuggtmoy is set up like an obelisk in the center of the village. Myconids surround it day and night, compelled to worship it. The entire village is covered in a mist that reduces visibility to twenty feet. However, the chanting of the myconids worshiping the relic can be heard from far away.
Dmg Treasure Table 5e
A successful DC 8 Intelligence (Religion) check identifies the chanting as the worship of some being. If the check succeeds by five or more, they recognize it as the worship of a demonic being.
The relic needs to be taken out of the forest or destroyed to end the threat of Zuggtmoy to the region. If the characters disturb the relic, two nearby myconid adults and two living white cap mushrooms (use awakened shrub stats) attack, attempting to stop the characters.
Once the relic is destroyed or removed from the forest, the plants return to normal, and the myconids and vegepygmies slowly become uncorrupted from its influence.
As a token of gratitude, the gnome reward the characters with several crates of rare truffles that they had been saving. The characters can then take these to Lord Dansworth Ratheem if they so choose.
When the characters report to Lord Ratheem their success, he rewards them with the promised 250 gp.
5e Dmg Magic Item Tables
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